Thou Shalt Not Kill
When I have gone over this with Sunday School students in the past, it is initially pretty clear. Kids get this. They know what killing is and they could never imagine themselves in a situation where they would commit such an act. When we talk about it in the context of the new testament, however, it takes on greater meaning. It means that we cherish others. We not only cherish their life, but their happiness and well being. So we agree not to kill their joy, or their trust, or their reputation, or their friendship.
There isn’t a lot of wiggle room in this sort of discussion and I suspect that all of us at one point or another have been guilty of treating others in an unkind way. The real question is what you do about it.
My sense is that when it is a private matter, you seek forgiveness. When it is a public matter, you express your opinion and try to change those policies which put our government at odds with our values.
I had posted something earlier about the confirmation hearings of Judge Mukasey suggesting that perhaps we were going to see a change regarding this administrations use of torture. Turns out that I spoke too soon. Mr. Mukasey seems to have fallen victim to the same semantic manipulations that we’ve seen from everyone else in the Bush administration from the President on down.
This particular case, though, has Mr. Mukasey being unwilling to admit that waterboarding is torture because, he claims, that he hasn’t had sufficient time to study the technique. So I figured I would take a moment to help out Mr. Mukasey based on data in wikipedia.
Waterboarding is a technique of simulated drowning where the victim is forced to inhale water while attempting to breathe. This elicits a gag response which is very frightening and very painful. Those who have undergone the technique have said that it only takes a few seconds of breathing water for the victim to stop resisting and cooperate. After that, just the threat of repeating that experience is usually sufficient to again return the victim to a “cooperative” state. The reason that waterboarding breaks a person’s will to resist interrogation is because people are afraid that they are going to die by suffocation. What they say in order to avoid a repeat of that experience, however, is widely believed to be unreliable.
On July 20, 2007 the President signed an executive order banning torture and including in the definition techniques which result in “the threat of imminent death”. The US is also a signatory in 1994 with virtually every other country in the world to the UN Convention Against Torture which specifically states, “No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”
Here’s a little history of this technique.
It was originally invented during the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) when torture was raised to an art form. The Dutch East India company used the technique in the 1600’s during a conflict with the British over the spice trade in Indonesia. The public outcry that followed caused a four year war between the Dutch and British. The Japanese and Germans used the technique during WWII. The US used it during the Viet Nam war. The Khmer Rouge used the techique in Cambodia during their reign of terror from 1975-1979.
It is embarrassing and disappointing for our country, which claims to be based on moral principles. to be included in this list. But Vietnam was a dark period for our collective soul. Unfortunately, we began using this technique again as a result of a 2002 authorization coming from the executive branch, specifically VP Cheney’s office according to ABC News and PBS reports.
In a 2006 interview with Scott Hennen of WDAY, VP Cheney appeared to endorse this technique when he agreed with the Hennen statement that it made sense to “dunk” a terrorist if it saved lives.
That is really the bottom line.
It is something that every thoughtful person in general and Christians in particular have to sort out based on their own understanding of the scriptures, thou shalt not kill, love your enemy, and love your neighbor as yourself.
As soon as you start to second guess God and accept circumstances where these instructions don’t apply, you are also saying that God somehow didn’t understand this particular situation and as a result these rules don’t apply. You are saying that I am so fearful of the outcome, that I’m going to make an exception because I don’t trust that God will protect those who put their trust in Him. You are saying, as it appears this administration has said, that we are above the law, are not bound by past agreememts, and can justify any action based on our own view of the value of the outcome.
Fortunately all of us will be held accountable for our actions by our Creator.
Those who support the practice of torture either directly or indirectly will have an opportunity to explain to someone who knows, why God’s laws didn’t apply to them.
November 1st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Hey Jeff,
Lets suppose a “suit case” went off in Manhatten and one in Cleveland one hour later. A terrorist internet site, such as those known today, says that each Tuesday for the next three weeks the same would occur in other major cities. The following Tuesday that same does occur but the terrorists slip up and we catch one of them. We have one of the guys responsible and two more Tuesdays to go and four more cities to be blow up. Jeff you can bet your bottom dollar I will be right there with hopefully you, doing whatever possible and necessary to get “the nice guy involved” to cough up whatever he knows. It’s called defend and protect.
Let me also say this about war and the military. To me the military is there for two reasons, Kill people and break things. I would hope they would never have to be used. I really do. But when the time comes that they need to be called to action, things are going to happen. It’s time to “kill people and break things.”
The gentlemen involved who’ve undertaken this as a career are not like you and I. When they are called to action, things are going to happen, it’s war. Abugrab (?) does not suprise me….but when taken as a whole it represents the slightest percentage of our effort. I do not agree with what happened there.
In manufacturing six sigma is a useful tool for gaining effecency and measuring. When six sigma is attained it means you have your process under contol 99.97% of the time. The other .03% are unknowable and uncontrollable events. Therefore you don’t try to control them as they are unknowable and uncontrollable.
In total the events the opponnets of the war in Iraq have “shed the light on” fall into this catagory. A very small potion of our effort which they choose to exploit. What they really did, and I honestly believe this,” is help, in significate part, to draw opposition to us throughout the would and started the world opinion against us. All over a very small portion of our effort. Yes, errors were made. However, for members of our own team to lead the chorus against us is what’s repugnet to me. We would have had a much easier time of it had everone just kept there mouths shut until after the war was over. Then, it would have been more appropriate to look into anything they deemed necessary.
Sorry wide ranging and a little off your topic at the end but the point is this: we do have rules when it comes to war, we follow them 99.97% of the time. There are cases we go outside the lines. I would bet we are far ahead of any other nation in the history of mankind on this and certainly further ahead of any super power that’s been. “let us bear in love with one another our faults.” (paraphrasing)
November 1st, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Keith,
Good to hear from you again.
You raise some good points which get to the heart of this discussion.
There were very similar issues in Jesus time. Israel had been conquered and was occupied by the Romans. That’s why there was such expectation for the Messiah to be a political leader as David was.
Instead Jesus brought a radical new thought that turned the whole concept of a righteous political leader (and a just war) on its ear.
“But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.”
As far as I can see, He didn’t say, “except when the enemies are really evil” or “only when it is practical and doesn’t put those you love at risk”.
So my question to you is, if you aspire to be one of those “which hear”. how do you square this fundamental part of Jesus theology with your definition of “defend and protect”?
By the way that’s not a rhetorical question. I really am interested since I think that this is something that every Christian has to think deeply about and sort out for themselves.
Jeff
November 6th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Hey Jeff,
I will respond to your question. Very busy, on besiness
in VA & NC. Hope to get to this this weekend.
As always Blessing upon you and your family
November 6th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Gentlemen, my thoughts on some of the postings here:
“… I think that this is something that every Christian has to think deeply about and sort out for themselves.”
That is the sort of logic that leads to the Fundamentalists and Inquisitors whom Mr. JB has nothing but apparent derision for (in the political sense anyway.) I’ve never heard of an event in Adamaic history where divine intervention prevented someone from sorting something out the wrong way. When left to our own devices we ignorant humans generally get things wrong - that’s why God established the Priestly class to help us get things right. A lot of very important nuances are lost in mistranslation, intentional or otherwise.
There are no biblical prohibitions on waging a just war or against capital punishment - there are only prohibitions against what we know of as Murder.
“Love thy neighbor” doesn’t allow us to ignore or abet evil among us, and was written when the neighbors were of ones own tribe, culture, religion and language. I haven’t fully grasped what such an admonishment means to us in these MultiCultural end-times.
“Render to Bush” I mean “caesar”, doesn’t give caesar carte blanche to demand whatever he wills. As it is for ourselves and our neighbors neither caesar nor mere presidents are above reproach when they are in error. Our U.S. government is not now engaged in a Just War and the players are fair game for whatever reproachment we can throw their way.
Any guesses as to whom the Antichrist’s minions will ordain as the first “leader” of the imminent North American Union? Does that bible you quote from say we are expected to idly pray that God will do something about it, or will it be ok to risk our own necks AND pray for heavenly assistance in the matter?
And those are not rhetorical questions, either.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Erich,
Something bothering you?
There seems to be a lot of anger in your responses.
Clearly there appears to be some difference in your reading of the Bible and mine, yet we also appear to agree on some political issues too.
I’ll do my best to answer your questions.
My first comment regarding Christians sorting things out for themselves is taken directly from Paul’s advice to work out your own salvation. If, for some people, that also involves some member of the clergy, that’s great. But there is great temptation, to assume whatever relationship your pastor has with God is also your relationship. It’s not.
Within that context, I suggest that fundamentalism and Inquisitors are not the result of individual study and revelation. They are the result of idealogs claiming to have some exclusive insight that justifies actions contradictory to the Bible’s basic teaching. David Koresh raped children with the consent of their parents because those parents depended on David for revelation rather than their own understanding.
Jesus said the two great commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. My sense of neighbor is anyone who isn’t me.
He did not say that we should ignore evil. But he did tell us how to deal with our enemies (evil or not). One of the enemies of the Jews at that point were the Romans. They were the most powerful political and military force the earth has ever seen. Their world domination has yet to be repeated. Yet even against this formidable enemy, he advocated love rather than hate. So for three hundred years, Christians who practiced this philosophy were systematically killed by the Romans. They didn’t retaliate. They didn’t start a just war. They just prayed and loved their enemy. Even the greatest military and political organization in the history of the earth couldn’t withstand three hundred years of love. Constantine stopped the persecutions and a hundred years later Christianity became the official religion of the empire.
I think that it still applies today (whether end times or not) and I agree it is one of the most challenging aspects of Jesus theology.
What the Bible says with regard to prayer is also pretty clear. Jesus said, “all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.”
If you look at the larger context of that quote from Matt 21:22, it’s pretty clear that when he said “all things” he really meant all things. He said that you could move a mountain to the sea with prayer if you needed to.
I’m not suggesting that you take this to heart in the same way that I have, but since it sounds as if you do read the Bible, how do you react to that promise?
BTW I don’t claim to have all of this sorted out either.
Jeff
November 7th, 2007 at 2:24 am
Mr. J.M.:
Appearances may be deceiving, as I have no anger - what is to be is to be, and totally out of my control. I offer only my input, and the efficacy of those labors is not necessarily a question for me to ask. I believe the Apocolypse is nearing, and my heart begs to know what truths that are to be learned between now and then, nothing more.
To reword an earlier statement I do not believe it is in the most ardent lay Christian’s power to interpret what God has given us in the written word accurately, and with all humility I am looking for what accuracy can be obtained, from whatever source. I deem it incompatible with the very basics of Christianity that we mere humans are capable of finding our own ways to salvation. “The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions”, and all that… I believe that in the end times, whenever that may actually be, our forewarnings of false prophets and seeming do-gooders will be but a satanic ruse for the true believers to see through, and that we will have much smoke-and-mirrors in our way at the time. I don’t believe we can move mountains with our mere prayers if those prayers are not in the divine scheme of things, however much we may wish it otherwise. It is not for man to question God’s wisdom, even for unanswered prayers.
I offer no explanation or apologies for the Davidians other than that in our innate need to find God we sinful humans can sometimes find Him in the wrong places. The sins of that particular sect are not mine to discern, but the American government’s reaction to them are certainly within my realm of reasoning, as they were acting as though they had “my” and “our” permission, without regard to accusations. Nowhere in American history has it ever been alright, or an acceptable way of doing business, to serve a warrant for possible weapons violations with armored tanks and military personnel. It is anathema to our legal system.
Whomever the “enemy of the Jews” at the time of Christ may or may not have been is also no concern of mine, and have no impact on the topic at hand, unless you’re referring to those of us who are against world-domination-in-anticipation-of-the-antichrist who clearly see the “jews’” hand in his advent. I see no correlation between the Old Testament Hebrews and the New Testament Synagogue of Satan. If I’ve missed something please enlighten me.
I seem to have missed the “God of Love” assumption your bible apparently professes as well. I am a keen student of (western) mythologies and only know of the Greek (Eros) and Roman (Amor) gods of love, offhand, although I do know the Norsemen had an equivalent whose name evades me at present. Our Christian admonitions, unless I’m mistaken, is to love our neighbor but not to sit idly by whilst he does wrong. We are clearly instructed to correct the errant ones. and those whose errors are incorrectable are to be dealt with accordingly. As for who our “neighbor” is in 21st Century America is not for me to decipher as I am not well enough educated in such matters and have only questions in that regard.
No guesstimates for leader of our North American Union, eh? Me neither, although I’ll bet the first one will be a former “American”.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Our path to heaven is simple, Let me extend the way, JESUS.
Read Romans our “our bible” and learn of His love and Grace for all of us. Everyone! AAlso we can understand what God wants to say to us by simply reading His word. the bible isn’t something that has hidden meaning or is set above us to be understood by the few. I’ll agree there can be some debate over somethings, but taken as a whole the is very little that is debate able. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave His begotten so, that who so ever believes in him shall have lefe ever lasting.” No much to debate there. Or Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” pretty straight forward I think. It wouls be a streach to agrue over that. maybe how he did it and how long the seven day took but not the HE is the Creator of everything.
I welcome you to understand Jesus and His role in your life. “For I came that you might have life and life abundently.”
God Bless You
November 7th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Erich,
I don’t claim any authorship or ownership of the Bible, or any particularly unique insight. All I know from my own experience is that the Bible has been a sufficient guide to my life. Whether or not it works for you is up to you.
I also can’t logically argue for the existence of God. I know that God exists for me because of my own experience. If your experiences lead you to a different conclusion (pending Apocolypse, false prophets, and a distant inscrutable God), I can’t dispute those conclusions.
As far as the power of prayer, however, there is plenty of evidence. The Bible documents healings by the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles. For the first three hundred years or so (until the early christian church started to become a political institution) similar healings were common and well documented. Healing as a common practice became less frequent, though still well documented from that time until now.
Today there is active research attempting to explain why some people through prayer experience the sort of unexplainable improvements in their medical condition that some call miracles. If you aren’t in the medical community, I would encourage you to try this simple test. The next time you are talking with a physician or a nurse, just ask them to share their story of unexpected inexplicable recovery in a patient. Virtually every medical professional has at least one and most have many. I can’t attribute every one to prayer, but I am confident that if you were able to research each one, you would find prayer an active component of most.
So what does that mean for you? Absolutely nothing if you don’t believe in prayer. The promise, after all, was only for those who believed.
I was a skeptic at one point in my life too.
I won’t bore you with the details of my particular experiences. Suffice it to say that once I experienced the potential of prayer, I felt that I owed it to myself, my family, and all those that I loved to figure out how to get a whole better at it. So that’s been the motivation for my study.
At least for me, I can say that I only occasionally feel as though I have grasped the hem of understanding, but even that glimpse of the infinite has resulted in blessings and healings that have convinced me that I’m on the right track.
Jeff
November 7th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Well, I guess I wasn’t nearly as clear as I intended earlier:
1) My questions regarding “your” bible weren’t a generic reference to “THE” bible, I only meant whichever version it is you’re quoting from, as my bible is very different (Douay-Rheims).
2) The question re: prayer was not meant to disparage prayer as it is, indeed a very powerful tool at our disposal. My question was with all this talk of “love” on the postings here I wonder what your personal feelings toward taking up arms to fight evil is, that’s all. Love and Turning the Other Cheek have their limitations…
3) What is the “skepticism” you’re referring to Jeff?
James 2, 26
sicut enim corpus sine spiritu emortuum est ita et fides sine operibus mortua est
“For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.”
November 7th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Erich,
Thanks for the note.
I read a bunch of different versions of the Bible too, but always come back to the King James Version because it is so poetic. I grew up with the DR bible so I’m very familiar with it too (alterboy, catholic grade school, jesuit HS, clergy in the family, etc.).
As far as taking up arms, I’m still working through that myself. As I’ve said, I find it a very challenging concept, but I also think about what the early Christians were able to accomplish by following the “love” command literally.
Any rational person is likely to say that putting down your arms and getting on your knees is not a practical defense policy for any country. But I also believe that were we as unified in purpose and commitment as those early christians were, we wouldn’t need an army either.
I interpreted “I don’t believe we can move mountains with our mere prayers if those prayers are not in the divine scheme of things, however much we may wish it otherwise. It is not for man to question God’s wisdom, even for unanswered prayers.” as skepticism that prayer can be effective. I think I understand your perspective a little better now.
Here’s a better response, given that understanding.
I don’t pray to make things happen. I pray to get my own ego out of the way and better understand and accept the divine scheme of things. The revelation of that scheme is always the answer to my prayer and it always blesses everyone in ways much better than I could have imagined.
“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” Jer 29:11-13
I agree with you, if prayer is not accompanied by works, then there is something wrong with your prayer.
Quaecumque sunt vera
Jeff