Politics and religion don’t generally mix well. You can pick just about any time in history right up to the present and find examples where people were getting killed in the name of one god or another. Our founding fathers had seen a lot of that in their time too and were determined to try something new – a government where politics and religion were separate. After more than 200 years, that appears to be breaking down, and just when we need an agnostic humanist government the most, we have a fundamentalist Christian one.
This isn’t a new idea. You can read about it in the Bible. That Pharisees under the Romans exerted both religious and political control in Israel. They killed the messiah they claimed to be waiting for because his religious philosophy threatened their political position.
One of the clear messages of Jesus theology is the rebuke of the whole Old Testament concept of judging. The Pharisees had spent centuries arguing about what was allowed and not allowed under Jewish law. They tied that to an understanding that God rewarded the pious and punished the sinner in this life. It was easy for them to point to their own material success as proof of their piety while at the same time condemning those who were poor, sick, or disabled as sinners. They gained political power by becoming the de-facto moral arbiters of all human activity.
Jesus turned that whole concept on its head. He proved through healing that the Pharisees definition of “sinner” didn’t work. He healed by seeing all as God saw them, in His image and likeness. He also told all the would listen that even though he was the Son of God, the Christ, the most perfect man to every walk the earth, that even he was not qualified to judge others. God did the judging. He did the saving. Then he told all of us that if we wanted to be saved, we needed to do the same thing – leave the judging to God and focus our attention on our own salvation.
The problem is that it is just a whole lot easier for us all to spend our time pointing the finger at others than it is for us to focus on our own shortcomings. In the last ten years that’s become a whole lot more dangerous as religious fundamentalism and political conservatism joined forces to take over the Republican Party.
This coalition is breeding a new generation of Pharisees intent on imposing a particular view of reality on everyone else. For this group, just like the Pharisees, there is no difference between sinful and criminal behavior. The most frightening aspect of this myopia is that they honestly believe that this mission to “save” humanity from itself by legislating morality is doing God’s will.
So we have legislation based on the concept that homosexuals are sinners that restricts the rights of homosexual couples to enjoy the civil benefits (tax breaks, inheritance rights, shared insurance, pooled credit, adoption preferences, legal protection, etc.) that our society offers married couples.
We have public policy that associates federal funding with the encouraging the teaching of abstinence as an effective birth control technique and discouraging teaching about contraception and disease prevention because pre-marital sexual activity is sinful.
We have international policy which ties AIDS prevention funding to promoting abstinence and removes funding from clinics that distribute condoms and perform abortions. This policy sacrifices foreign populations to the scourge of AIDS and the poverty of overpopulation in the name of promoting “Christian” values.
We have a broken political system where public citizens with sexual identity problems suffer far more public abuse and ridicule than those who betray the publics trust for their own gain.
We have educational systems that teach the Bible as a science, but we have public outcry when other religious traditions seek much less dangerous accommodations (installing Muslim wash basins).
We seek to put up fences to control immigration because we fear being overwhelmed by those who don’t share our “Christian” values when the vast majority of these immigrants ARE Christian.
I don’t seek to judge those that aspire to speak for God. They will discover soon enough whether or not they got it right. What I do hope is that I can encourage all of you to read the Bible yourselves. Don’t let others (including me) tell you what it means. All you need is there, and that combined with humble prayer will lead you to decide whether that mote in my eye is really irresistible.
Hey Jeff,
Gone again awhile.
Don’t want this to sound harsh so if my directness seems so, I apoligize in advance. You are really beinggin gto lose me as to your Christian view and I will need to speak very directly.
I’ll try this another way and I’ll be much more direct then in the past. Your logic is abosultely lost on me… (reading between the lines you are in favor of allowing the killing of the unborn, think universal acceptance of homosexuality is ok, any infulance of Jesus on a politician is the worse thing possible, that we should hand out condoms to kids and tell them how not to get pregent, and that agreeing with the scoops trial verdict that both creation and evolution should be taught in the schools is wrong. by the way what ever happened to the teaching of creation part of that?) Also who is the “new genaration of pharisies that is being bred?” I’d say it’s that some are FINALLY standing up….Go to the “wallbuilders” website to find out what generation bred the founding of our country, our consitution, declaration of independance. Take a trip to Washington D.C. and look at all the monuments, art, engravings, statues, buildings, etc that have been in place since then….any intellectually honest person would be compelled to admit the influance of our Creator on the gov’t our country…..
There are several gods that are worshipped but there is only one true God. I believe that to be the God of Abraham. (jews, muslims and Christians) I think that is yours as well, as a Christian.
Your post usually begins with a passage from the bible. Therefore it is logical for me to assume you regard the bible as something to base your belief system upon, as you use it to point out flaws in others. When I do it you accuse me and others, refering to your most recent post, of judging, I’m not, farthers thing from my mind…..Let me explain.
Gay sexuality is an issue. What other response does a Christian have then to view it as sin when the bible so clearly points to it as such?
Christians are tolarent of their behavor. I know everyone and every church I’ve gone to are. (one was THE most promminet Baptist Church in the USA, 27,000 members) They would not, however, accept gay behavior as ok,nor should they. Just as they should not accept sinful behavior of mine if I clearly fall into sin. Jeff what pastor in their right mind would want anyone to live in sin. Most bible teaching pastors won’t marry a couple who are living togather. Their not just picking on gays they are doing their best to instruct others to live a Godly Christian life.
I’m not sure, and I’ve asked this question in the past, that you are ready to call anything sin. I’m assuming its because you don’t want to judge. However you are wrongly saying that the questionable behavior, in this case homosexuality, is ok. We can, should, are accountable to, and must call sin, “SIN.”
ISA 5:20 “woe to those who call evil good.” Jer 18:11 “So turn from your evil ways.” Rom 2:2:8 “…who reject the truth and follow evil.” Do a word search on the word evil, and all associated. Jeff..You’ll find it something like 143 times. Sin, and all associated, I didn’t count but well over 500 – 600 times.
This begs the question; so what is it that’s sinful and evil…….the answer is simple, US, you, me and everyone else! Roms 3:23 “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Roms 3: 10-12 “as it is written: “There is no one rightous, NOT EVEN ONE; there is none who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have togather become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
We’re in tough shape. I’ve acknowledge this in my life Jeff, I am a sinner. We all are. I’ve confessed my sins to God and asked forgivenss through His Son Jesus. This is how we are saved. Not by “Leaving the judging to God.” Judging is a sin….but not sinning isn’t what brings about salavation, Jesus death and resurractions does and, again, our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior. “Jesus died once for the remission of all sin.”
Sorry to run on there but that was important and is the foundation of my comments to you which are these;
How can we reject the idea there is sin and still be saved? You seem to want to?
Sin is something that is made very clear in the bible and you somehow don’t want to acknowledge that. You wrongly say salvation comes from “leaving the judging to God.” While we are to leave the judging to God we are not saved by “leaving the judging to God.” We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, His forgiveness of our sin by asking for it and the confussing of Him as Lord and Savior.
John 3:16 “for God so loved the world that He sent His begotten Son that who so ever believed in Him shall have eternal Life.”
Rom 623 “For the wages of sin is death.
Roms 5:8 “But God demonstrated His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners Christ Died for us.”
Roms 10:9&10 That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved…..
Roms 10:13 “for,everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Pauls famous line was this, “What then shall we do with all this grace, keep sinning??? (good question. The answer is NNNOOOO!!!! (parapharshing.)
Here’s my direct point to you.
Rom 1: 21 – 32. I mentioned this verse before and you dismissed it. Let me be more specific……..”For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal men and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather then the creator – who is forever praised. Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave themover to a depraved mind, to do what ought not be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanders, God-haters, insolent, arrongent and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s rightous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they do not only continue to do these very things BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRATICE THEM.”
Why don’t you get this? …It’s not about Homosexuals!!! Not at all. It’s about sin….You are seemingly taking the position of “BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRATICE THEM.”
Yes, they have the right to do whatever they choose and we should leave them alone. We choose to be Christians, they choosen to be gay. However Jeff, we are instructed not to approve of that behavior….. just as we are not to approve of “gossip, slander, disobedance of parents, deceit, etc. Shall I go to Galatians 5 and give you more things we should disapprove of? It’s our nature towards sin they we are to dissaprove of.
So when a group comes and wants to legitimize SINFUL behavoir, I will dissaprove. If a strip club is going to be built on the corner of La Pleasents and 75, the church will and SHOULD dissaprove…..I don’t understand how you can’t understand this point and how you write repugnetly of those who are merely holding up God’s word as a standard.
Kieth,
Good to hear from you again.
I was in Washington DC this past week as a matter of fact.
I did also go to the Wallbuilders site that you recommended. Though they claim to be reclaiming history that was somehow “suppressed” in the 60’s, as far as I can see, they are much more concerned about rewriting history to justify a claim that the founding fathers didn’t mean what they wrote in the constitution. I believe that God was working through these men to create a more perfect union. That more perfect union kept religion and government separate. That didn’t mean that God wasn’t important. What it did mean is that EVERYONE had the right to worship God in the way of their own choosing, even if that meant that they didn’t worship God at all.
As far as what is sinful or not, that is your own demonstration and understanding. I happen to agree with you that most everything you’ve listed would certainly be on my list of things to avoid too. I also ask forgiveness every day for my sins. I also agree that Jesus said no man comes to the Father except through me. What that means to me is that the way to understand God is to seek to understand Jesus the Christ, the God-idea come to man.
So when I read the gospels, I see the same sort of dialog going on between the Pharisees and Jesus as is going on between you and me. Jesus healed people on the Sabbath day. The Pharisees said that was a sinful act based on their understanding of the commandment regarding the Sabbath. So Keith, please think about this next question deeply. Who was right, Jesus or the Pharisees?
I’ll give you my answer, but it doesn’t have to be your answer.
My answer based on my own understanding as it has evolved so far is that they were both right. Healing on the Sabbath day for a Pharisee would be a sinful act for them because of how they thought. Healing for Jesus on the Sabbath day was not a sinful act because of how He thought. In Jesus case it was done out of pure love for both the afflicted, the Pharisee, and God. What the Pharisee viewed as work Jesus knew was worship.
That’s why God is the judge. He is the only one who knows us and our thoughts even better than we do ourselves. Our job is to love and heal as Jesus did and work out our own salvation. At least for me, that work does not include pointing out the sins of others.
I don’t know your thoughts either. If you are able to point out the faults of others with the same love that Jesus had, then maybe it would work for you. As you’ve already accurately pointed out, I’m not there yet.
That doesn’t mean that we don’t need laws which punish those who act out against others and define limits on behavior that serve the greater good (e.g. speed limits). We do. To use your example, for the greater good, we agree to shelter children from “adult” material. We don’t, however, tell those who create that material that, because we view it as sinful, they can’t sell it. They just can’t sell it to kids.
Beyond that, however, I will leave it to those who feel they are sufficiently without sin to hurl stones at those they view as sinners. I know I’m not, so I can’t. But within the walls of your church and in the comfort of your living room, you are welcome to throw as many stones as you can gather.
When those stones are proposed as laws, however, you are now asking me to agree that we as a society should stone sinners by (in the case of gay folks) refusing to extend the same legal preferences that we extend to hetrosexual couples. If there were some evidence that gay marriages didn’t deliver the same economic benefits as straight marriage, that might make some sense, but the economic studies I’ve seen say that gay couples actually benefit society more than straight couples. So all that’s left to justify witholding this legal benefit is a particular reading of the Bible. If you were willing to also withold the legal benefits of marriage from those who were living together prior to marriage (fornicators) or those who were previously divorced because of infidelity (adulterers) based on that same reading of the Bible, I might feel that there was at least some balance to your bias. Otherwise you have to accept it for what it is – bigotry. The same sort of bigotry that was used to justify the holocaust and the enslavement of the Africans.
So my responsibility in a democracy when I object is to stand up, say so, and when the vote is taken, vote no.
Jeff
Well,I don’t think we’re getting very far here. Jesus was absolutely correct in healing on the sabith. I don’t see my argugement as even being remotely along those lines. All I have ever tried to say is that the bible does contain truths and those truths should be upheld and taught. No, no forced on anyone, but taught. (What then should I have been foing with my allotted hours for so many years teaching Sunday school.) It will help you understand me better that more then anything else i teach on grace. God’s grace and the grace we are called upon to show others. We are caled to live a life of grace. Find quarraling you’ll find a lack of grace, strife, a lack of grace….on & on.
2 Tim 3 says
All scripture is God breathed useful for, among other things, teaching and correcting. All I’ve ever said to you is we are responsible to teach and correct…. the bible clearly calls many things sin. I’ve tauaght on sin. I certainly preferr grace but if we don’t teach what is sin how will anyone know what it is. Jesus told the woman at the well…:go and SIN NO MORE.” Jesus was concerned with sin also. In fact he talked about it also.
I just can’t get on the same page with you as to how we can’t possible acknowledge sin and point out the bibles teachings concerning it.
As to the on going discussion about Homosexuality that you adress towards the end, i can only add to my previous comments. If we’re going to discuss this with me any longer we’re going to have to come to an understanding of ROM 1 that I’ve mentioned many time and wrote in my last response. How can any agruement saying it’s an activity approved by God overcome this portion of scripture? And please let me make this very clear, I AM NOT CONDEMING THEM, ONLY THEIR ACTION. Just as I would a male and female who had sex outside of marrige. (and males and females out of wed lock should NOT have the same benifits as married couples)
Gods Blessings on you and your family this week.
I do appricated this ongoing conversation with you. You are the first person I’ve ever had a reasoned, though you may not find mine reasoned,
discussion about these things.
Kieth,
I enjoy exchanging views with you too and welcome your responses.
There is probably a little more meat left on this bone regarding Rom 1. So here are a few more things to consider.
First, you have to read this particular passage in the context of what went before and what came after. This letter was written to a congregation in Rome who had converted to Christianity and then lapsed back into paganism and the orgiastic temple practices that were common in Rome at the time. So it is not clear in this passage that Paul was condeming homosexuality in general, or just these practices as part of a larger practice of paganism.
Second, if you are going to take Paul’s specific condemnation of homosexuality in this passage as a general instruction for all time, you also have to adopt his suggestions that prostitutes should be burned alive, victims of rape should marry their assailants, prisoners should be tortured, non-virgin brides should be executed, that genocide is OK, that slavery is OK, and that slaves should be obedient to their masters.
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.” (Eph. 6:5-6)
Clearly Paul was a product of his times. So you have to read his writting with some appreciation of the historical context and not as literal road map for either government or personal action.
Finally, you also have to read the next chapter in Romans to fully understand the passage that you quoted.
“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.” Rom 2:1
In other words, whether it is pagan practice (as I read it) or homosexuality (as you read it), it is just as bad, if not worse, to judge those who commit those acts as it is to commit the acts themselves.
So to summarize, I don’t have any problem with your view of homosexuality as sinful. That is up to you to determine how that squares with your understanding of the Bible. You’ll find out soon enough when you enter the Creator’s embrace whether He regards you as a good and faithful servant. So whatever I share with you, I’m doing only in the hope that you continue to think and not with any expectation that you change your mind.
I submit for your consideration, however, that when you advocate laws which turn what you consider a sinful act (civil unions) into a criminal act – that is judging.
Just to round this out, I think that civil unions should be evaluated solely on whether or not those legal protections offer the same benefits to society that straight marriages do.
I also happen to believe some day when it is finally clear that homosexuality is a genetic condition just like skin color, and not evidence of some moral weakness, the courts will decide that homosexuals deserve the same sort of fair and equal treatment under the law that African Americans had to fight for.
It’s just my opinion, but it is based on the historical record of Christians in the past who were just as convinced about the Biblical support of slavery and witholding the vote from women as you are about the Bible’s support for witholding rights from homosexuals.
My sense is that this too shall pass.
Jeff
Homosexuality is just like being born black and their struggle is the same as the african american. can’t get there with you on that and we won’t have any meaningful conversation there. I’ll say it’s a choice and you’ll say it’s genetic. I’ll continue to point to the bible, and you’ll say it’s not there. (Paul was talking about something and it wasn’t to be done in
Rom 1, regardless of who he was writing to and what their past pratices were)
Most everything we’ve disagreed on is how the bible is enterperted and what we are to do with it. One question for you today; In your post two times ago, second full paragraph, you say “I’ll agree they are things to avoid.” What I’m calling sin as found in the bible, you leave me with the empression you believe them to be “things to avoid.” Is there such a thing as sin and should we describe it and tell others to “flee from it?”
Kieth,
Happy to see that you still see some value in this subject.
Yes I do believe in sin. I believe it is when you turn away from God’s Love. My sense also is that it has to be a personal decision, just like Jesus healing on the sabbath. I could kill someone, for example, and it wouldn’t be sinful because of my intention. It could be in self-defense or as part of my military duty. If it was out of hate, though, it wouldn’t matter what the circumstance. It would be sinful.
As I’ve said before, if you see your mission in life is to point out the sins of others, I truly hope that you come to that mission with way more love and humility that I’ve been able to muster.
I just can’t do it and honestly say that I’m not also judging the person.
Besides, my understanding of Jesus instruction is that I need to work on my own salvation first before I start suggesting that I have any right to tell others that they aren’t doing as good a job as they could on their own.
If someone is interested in why I’m doing something or asks me for advice, I’ll happily provide it. I like the sorts of discussions that we’ve been having and seek them out.
I hope that as a result of these discussions you’ll think more about both spirituality and politics. But I don’t expect you to change your mind or even agree with me.
At the end of the day, as Jesus said, it is the works that are important.
I would submit that a simple measurement of whether or not an activity is bearing fruit in a spiritual sense, is whether or not those engaged or touched by the activity are more loved and loving after the activity than when they started.
If so, they are all growing closer to God.
If not, then this particular “vine” is not bearing fruit and must be “cut off” which means stop doing what you’re doing and pray for better understanding on what to do differently the next time.
I hope all of your activities are so blessed.
Jeff
The only reason I persist is this; I’ve taught Sunday School, Home Groups and lead youth groups. I’ve taught the Bible in all cases. I’ve taught newly converted Christians. I’ve never pointed out the sin of others. I do point to the bible and teach what is in there. Part of that is “thou shalt not” I just can’t seam to skip over those. I teach and have taught on many, many things other then sin. However, sin is in there. Just curious as to how one can teach about Christianity without one day stumbling over the topic of sin….it certainly isn’t this first thing I teach, that would be gen 1:1. then Roms 8:28, then James 1 & 2, then Matt 6:33, then the rich young man, etc.
Sin isn’t the first thing that comes to mind for me. So you and I really aren’t that far apart in pratice as I always point to God’s grace and love first. And judging NEVER occurs. It is not my job to point out sin in others but I do find it my responsibity to teach what the bible has to say about sin.
Now, on to suppy side economics!!!!!
Keith,
I taught Sunday School for years too and thoroughly enjoyed it.
My favorite story was one Easter when the whole class of middle school kids got it.
We were talking about Jesus overcoming death. We talked about the circumstances of Jesus death. How the Romans were pretty experienced when it came to killing people and that’s why the centurian stabbed him with a spear after it appeared that he had already died. So there wasn’t much question that he stopped breathing, his heart stopped beating, and if they had a brain wave machine, all brain activity likely stopped.
Then we talked about what happened next. How Jesus had to come to terms with what happened and complete His demonstration by getting back up from where he was laid. We talked about the details because they are important. Did he walk? Yes he walked. Did his heart start beating again? Probably so because his body seemed to be working fine. Where did the blood come from? Don’t know but clearly whatever was required for him to move freely was available to him. How did he get around? It seemed that he just appeared places, but it wasn’t clear whether he walked, or flew, or just materialized. But when he was in the company of the disciples, he really was physically there as robust as he was before he died, but also reflecting the results of his victory.
After that sunk in, I then asked, if Jesus overcame death, what does that mean for us. One of the kids piped up immediately, “That means that we will too!” There was a moment of silence as every eye in the class looked at me. I smiled a big smile and said Happy Easter. It was as if a bomb went off in the room. Everyone literally jumped out of their seats and started jumping around saying, “Because Jesus overcame death, we will too.”
It was a good day because it felt like we touched the hem of his garment and got a little glimpse of what Mary Magdeline much have felt in her “rabboni” moment.
BTW, I noticed that post that I titled Rabboni had somehow been labeled private. If you haven’t had a chance to read it, I’d be interested in your comments.
Jeff
A good story….
Where is the “Rabboni” post?
It was back around Easter time.
Jeff