What I sincerely appreciate about our correspondence is your willingness to engage and your hope that there is a common ground.

Let me take a stab at laying out some common ground.

I think that we both agree that sin is punished. I also think that we both agree that the punishment we experience is instructive in helping us make better choices the next time.

I think that we both agree that it is the function of government to enforce laws which encourage order and safety. If someone is killed, for example, there is a system to determine who is responsible and what the penalty, if any, should be.

Where we appear to differ on sin is that I don’t believe God needs my help identifying or punishing sinners. So using the women at the well story, Jesus told all her accusers that they needed to take care of their own sins first before they started judging anyone else. They obeyed him and left presumably to work on their own issues. Jesus was the one who forgave her and admonished her to change her ways. The instruction I take from this story is that my role is either as the accusers or as the woman, not as Jesus. So I have to take care of my own issues before I accuse anyone else, and when I am forgiven for my sins, I have to do my best to learn from the experience.

Where we also differ is the scope of the laws that we would expect government to enforce. We both agree that government should have the right to enforce laws which affect the safety of person and property. We don’t agree that government should have the right to enforce laws regarding morality. As much as I loathe it, if a woman wants to disrobe in public and get paid for it, government should not be able to prohibit these businesses, only regulate them in order to protect children and preserve the family nature of neighborhoods.

So this is where we differ regarding homosexuals. It is my job to love my brother and let God judge them. That is the case whether they are homosexuals, thieves, or murderers.

If they are thieves or murderers, it is the governments job to enforce laws which protect citizens from crimes. If on the other hand, two consenting adults are able to form a stable bond, it shouldn’t matter to society whether they are of the same sex or different sex. All that should matter to society is that this stable bond is benefiting society and as a result should be encouraged. I appreciate that you feel that society is encouraging folks to be sinful, but in my mind enforcing a particular morality is not government’s job. If we did, we would still have prohibition, strip bars and playboy magazine would be illegal, and gambling would also be illegal.

Hope that helps.

Jeff

You’re response to this is going to be either a) isn’t not sin or b) who are we to judge. both of which are simply not biblically supported. Your response will be a)thet’s your intereptation. Do I also get to interpurt what murder is, or stealing?

The bigger point is how do we come to common ground here? Tolerance for sinners is one thing, tolerance for the ACCEPTANCE of sin as a rule is quite another.

Thanks for reading my stuff.

Jesus clearly lost his temper in the temple. He did display the full range of human emotions. He was a man afterall. He was tempted. He was tired. He got irritated and impatient. His ate, slept, relieved himself, sneezed, burped, passed gas, etc.

None of that diminishes his philosophy, however, which was RADICAL tolerance. When someone strikes you, not only don’t strike back, but give them an opportunity to stike you again. When someone takes your coat in settlement for a debt, give them your cloak too. If they hate you and treat you badly, love them and pray for them. There are very few even today that measure up to that standard.

As far as the quote is concerned, I thought it entirely appropriate.

Jesus was telling a story to help his followers understand what he expected of them. You have to read it in the context of the time. The Jews believed that bad things happen to bad people. So in their terms it was easy to spot the bad people. They are those that are hungry, thirsty, poor, naked, sick, or in prison. They also believed that only the Jews were the chosen people, so everyone else was suspect and clearly not as favored by God. So toss foreigners in to the bucket as inferior too.

So what did he tell them?

He said that those that are too poor to buy food should be fed and not turned away as sinners. His followers should share their precious water with all those that are thirsty even if they came from villages where their wells have run dry. His followers should open their houses to the homeless and the foreigner as if they were their own family. They should give the clothes off their back to those who lost their clothes in some tragedy rather than judge them. They should visit the sick and not regard them as being punished. They should even care for those who WERE being punished and were spending time in prison.

This flew in the face of everything the Jews had been taught, so why should they do it? Jesus answer was simple, when you show this kindness and charity to the most vulnerable in society, the ones you think are sinners, you are serving me. When you serve me obediently even when it doesn’t make sense to you, you have become part of my flock, and I will lead you into heaven. If on the other hand, you are willful and stubborn, you are welcome to continue acting like a goat, but you won’t find your way to heaven on your own.

Same thing works today. You believe that homosexuals are sinners should be treated as such legally. This is no different than the Jews during Jesus time believing that those suffering in some way or other (no food, no clothes, no home, no health, in prison) were sinners and should be shut out of society.

Jesus advice was good then and it is just as good today - that is assuming you want to be a sheep.

Jeff

i could take your verse at the end and say the complete oppisite about it. remember where that comes from; the story of the sheep and goats. he condemmed those who did NOT help their fellow man. therefore it’s not a streach the say the enabling and encourge our fellow man to live an unrepentant life is “in as much as you’ve not done it to the least of thee you’ve not done it unto me.”

you’ve take the verse out of context as to make a point as i just did.

scripture really shouldn’t be used this way.